[00:02:44]

Daniel Epstein:
Yeah. Thank you so much, Simon. I’m privileged to be here and can’t wait to dive in. [00:02:47]

Simon Mainwaring:
Daniel, the first question I wanna ask you turns on the name of your company itself. What struck me when I first came across the unreasonable group was, you know, unreasonable, it’s like impossible foods. There’s a certain breadth of ambition there. What was the gap that you noticed in the investment space that warranted you to start unreasonable? [00:03:08] And why did you call it unreasonable in the first place? [00:03:11]

Daniel Epstein:
Okay, great question Simon. And I think tell everybody who’s tuning in, we should do them the favor of rationalizing the Sealy irrational name. I, um, I’ll start there. I it’s the Irish playwright, George Bernard Shaw, who served as our inspiration. Um, he has a quote, um, where he said that the reasonable person adapts themselves to the world, the unreasonable one persists in adapting the world to themselves. [00:03:34] Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable person. Uh, in essence, you know, if, if George Bernard Shaw is. If all progress depends on our reasonable people. Then in the world that we live in today, right? Where the climate crisis is rapidly accelerating. We’re nearly a billion people don’t have access to food or clean drinking water. [00:03:52] Uh, you know, we know the statistics in the world we live in today. If progress depends on reasonable people, we can’t afford not to bet on the world’s most unreasonable individuals. So that begs the question who might those people be. And we wholeheartedly believe it’s entrepreneurs, uh, because entrepreneurs, as you know, have a curiously warped perspective, right? [00:04:11] When we look at what most may consider to be market failures or issues or problems, uh, we see solutions and opportunities and then entrepreneurs will those into existence. And I think they have a healthy disregard for the status quo and a desire to reimagine it for the better. , that’s where the inspiration around unreasonable comes from. [00:04:30] But to answer your question about the gap in the investment space. I am. That’s, uh, it’s a bigger question and it’s, it’s actually, it’s not the Genesis of unreasonable. Seeing the gap in the investment space. What we really saw in the Genesis was that there was no place for entrepreneurs who were. You know, positioned to scale up multi-billion dollar companies oriented around solving seemingly intractable problems. [00:04:55] There was no home or community for them to seek refuge in. , and so that was really the founding attention of unreasonable was build a community of support that is global, that will, um, yeah. Help these entrepreneurs on the frontline scale, their impact. What we learned over time of course, is that one of most prominent needs of any company that’s rapidly scaling is leverage, right? [00:05:16] If you’re gonna leverage what works or scale, what works I am, then financing is a core component of that. And so today we support, , just shy of 330 ventures around the world. They’ve raised, , over 9 billion in financing in the last five years, I am all towards this effort of leveraging for profit business models to solve what we think are, you know, impossibly hard societal and environmental problems. [00:05:41] And. There are a lot of gaps in the investment world. Um, in that case, you know, $9 billion may sound like a lot of money I am. And in some ways, certainly it is. But when we talk about the scale of the challenges that these entrepreneurs are positioned to solve, , it doesn’t even come close. And so we’ve seen, , a huge opportunity to kind of bridge that divide, , and connect capital to solutions that not only will outperform financially, but that will be proud to have invested in. [00:06:12] Um, and that’s a big, big part of the role we’re now playing. [00:06:15]

Simon Mainwaring:
And, you know, I think every entrepreneur listening to this would take hard from what you said, because crazy and the best sense loves company. It’s hard being an entrepreneur. It’s hard solving for these problems. It’s lonely. And it seems like there’s so many challenges every single day. [00:06:29] So I think building that community of like-minded peers is critical, but also I think the name unreasonable. Performs a very powerful job in terms of setting expectations. I mean, it effectively allows people to self-select and pre-qualify themselves as to the, as to the role they wanna play. Have you seen that show up and, and did you find it was really instructive to attracting the right type of entrepreneur? [00:06:50]

Daniel Epstein:
Absolutely. So that’s an interesting question around brand, because usually I would say, , the name of a brand. It it’s a nice to have, but it doesn’t really matter like apple. What does that have to do with computers? You know, so like all, all of these different brands, um, that, that we know and love, , their brand presence, um, gains meaning as they gain reputation in essence, right. [00:07:11] , and credibility. And in our case, actually having the brand unreasonable did serve as a center of gravity to attract like minded individuals. Um, people who felt like misfits, who were in essence, tired of being told from everyone around them, that their idea is completely unreasonable, that it will never work, , when they’ve dedicated their, their lives to ensuring that it actually does. [00:07:30] And so I do think this idea of, you know, these misfit entrepreneurs seeking refuge amongst a community, , it does self-select, uh, the brand does speak, , to the right people. If I were to, you know, frame our long term and a vision in some ways, what we’re trying to prove to the world is these ideas, these concepts, these technologies, these entrepreneurs, we all think are incredibly unreasonable. [00:07:52] That actually they’re the only reasonable avenue we have towards the future that we wanna see. And I think in hindsight, Everybody says, well, of course that was reasonable. That’s an obvious idea, right? If you can convert pollution into jet fuel, if you can make clothing out of methane, I am in hindsight, it’s like, of course, why wouldn’t we do that? [00:08:11] , but to actually get through that barrier of all that skepticism, it takes a lot of work. And to your point, it can be lonely. And so, um, We’re definitely a community of like-minded people who, who have self-selected in some ways. Yeah. [00:08:24]

Simon Mainwaring:
So I think, , the entrepreneurial lot is, is a very tough one on so many different levels. [00:08:29] Mm-hmm, , especially with all the multiple compounding crises and so on. Would you say that there’s an way that you’ve institutionalized this ambition and I wanna press on it a little bit more because it’s so easy for things to become that seem unreasonable at first to become normalized. Yeah. Shall we say, as you say, especially in hindsight, I deeply believe we need to back out of the future rather than build on the past, because I think the past has less to do with the future than ever now really well, because you know, technology half life is increasing. [00:08:56] These, these challenges are compounding and so on. So institutionally, how do you make sure that there’s no slippery slope where you start to as a function of scale and size and funding and complexity, incrementally dilute your own breadth of ambition in terms of being. Unreasonable because these are things as you grow, you always need to formalize to protect. [00:09:16] Is there anything you do to that [00:09:18]

Daniel Epstein:
end? Oh, that’s such an interesting question. I love your question, Simon. That’s great. Um, I think it’s brilliant. Let, let me, uh, I’ll make a comment too, that I’m just kind of agreeing with you. And then, um, let’s dive into that. The mechanics of that. And I, but I, I think as we, we look at the world today, there, there is no shortage of good ideas. [00:09:39] A lot of people have ’em all the time. Um, I would also say there’s not a dearth of capital. It may feel like it, but there isn’t. Um, and in reality, what there really is, is a dear of courage. Right. That it takes a very special type of person to risk everything, their finances, their reputation, their relationships, their sleep with like everything to will, something into existence that has never existed before for the sole reason that they wanna, you know, better the status quo for the world around them. [00:10:05] And, and, and, you know, supporting those rare few people who have that courage to be on the front lines. That’s really our work. , and to answer your question, I am, if the integrity of what we do is ever compromised by the scale at which we operate we’ve we’ve failed. Uh, and so, you know, unreasonable. [00:10:24] We’re an interesting organization. Some ways we’re hard to put into a box, as you know, are we we’re part media company, part investment firm, parts, syndicate, part community, part, mentor driven, um, so on and so forth. I, but I, you know, if you try to put us into a box or if we try to put ourselves into a box, as we scale, I, I think we lose some of the magic that makes us what we are. [00:10:47] Um, and so you, I do not have the ambition. I am running the company to, , scale in breadth, right? So right now we bring in about 50 to 60 CEOs into the unreasonable fellowship. Each year, once they’re in the fellowship, we haven’t talked to them. We support them for life. and we could certainly scale that. [00:11:06] We could say, Hey, we’re gonna bring in, uh, our ambition is to bring in 300 CEOs a year, five years from now. We could say that that’s not our ambition. Uh, instead, uh, we wanna stay where we are, which is to scour the globe. , do a ton of primary research, handpick and privately invite the CEOs we think are best positioned to create a better future. [00:11:27] I am. And I think that if, if we broadened our horizons a little bit too much and said, Hey, yeah, we wanna go to a hundred companies at 200, 300 and 500. I am that eventually that would dilute the quality of what we do. And if we bring in 50 to 60 CEOs a year, the same core team can be the team that services all of those CEOs instead of having to have multiple teams around the world. [00:11:49] Right? So that’s, that’s a big part of staying smaller in some ways, but then we can go deeper in terms of the impact we want to [00:11:56]

Simon Mainwaring:
have. And I think that’s powerful what you’re saying, because those who’ve been through the process can mentor the others so that it takes on a life of its own. And it’s self sustain rather than becoming an ever heavy burden to you. [00:12:05] And you called out the different parts of what unreasonable does. And I think one of the things that people are waking up to is that these problems that we face climate loss of biodiversity, ocean acidification, all of these things are systemic problems in as much as they’re all interrelated connected and complex, and the solutions need to be equally systemic. [00:12:25] Totally. But. What you are doing is building an ecosystem around the entrepreneur to make that systemic solution possible. So can you walk us through the different component parts of what unreasonable does and why you’ve sort of like architected these sort of nodes in the network that you have. Hmm. [00:12:44]

Daniel Epstein:
Yeah. You such a good question. I love them. Uh, yes, I certainly can. I am. And, and what I would say is, um, just a comment on what you said as well is we, we have a belief, there’s no panacea a solution, right? There’s no, there’s no, you know, golden solution that’s gonna solve the climate crisis. So that’s gonna lead to, you know, an equitable and inclusive future that’s can help adolescent girls, , step out of absolute poverty or, uh, universal healthcare coverage. [00:13:09] There’s, there’s no single solution. In fact, if you look at any of those issues, , by itself, you failed from the start because all of those challenges are interconnected into related. And so it’s really our belief that. I am. You’re not gonna have one company, one technology that solves any given problem that you need to have a portfolio approach. [00:13:27] And the real key is to connect that portfolio of solutions with one another, to strengthen each other’s impact in the market. I am. And I think you’re gonna really resonate with this Simon cuz of, uh, you know, the orientation of so much of your work, but much, much of business to date has been about having a competitive advantage. [00:13:46] I’ve never understood that word, really competition I am, which is, which is interesting. But I think that business in the 21st century will be defined by having a collaborative advantage, right? That the future tens of industry will be those who found ways to collaborate with quote unquote competitors. [00:14:02] And the thing we will compete on is solving the problem in the real world. Like the only thing we should be having a wartime effort on is not competing with each other, but it’s competed against the climate crisis or an equity. Right. Of course. And so. To your question. , how do we, , really support the companies from a mirror of these different angles, , it’s all come from actually listening to them, right? [00:14:24] So we’ll hand pick, we’ll probably invite the CEOs to join the fellowship. We believe they are going to be the. Tightens of industry into the future. We believe they have a solution that works. They might be bringing clean drinking water to 2 million people with atmospheric water technology, whatever it might be, where you say, okay, you’re bringing 2 million, how do we take you to 200 million faster? [00:14:43] And then we say, tell us what your challenges are, tell us what your problems are and we’ll orient solutions and this community of support around that. And so that’s why we. We’re an odd shaped, uh, organization in a way as we have just listened wholeheartedly to the needs of the entrepreneurs we support. [00:15:00] And so what do entrepreneurs need? Well, part of it is to your point, it’s a lonely, hard struggle. And part of it is just a community of support of peers who they can share these experiences with and they can coach each other. And so one of the biggest value adds if you’re in the unreasonable fellowship is the connection to the other CEOs across the co or across the portfolio. [00:15:21] , and we will match you into what we call a Grove, which is, um, inspired by redwoods. I am. And in that Grove every month, you’re meeting with eight, 10 other CEOs and you’re sharing what’s hardest. I am, and you’re having shared experiences in learning. So that’s part of it. Another part. The technical abilities to scale cross continental are different than the technical abilities to launch a new company. [00:15:43] So the average company in the fellowship is seven years into operations, and typically they’ve really identified something that works. Um, the nature of the problem they’re trying to solve is global it’s part of our selection criteria. And so they’re trying to go international. And so there are a lot of difficulties with that as, as you know, and whether that’s brand or that’s cross continental supply chain, or that’s thinking about company culture, or that’s looking at, you know, how do you have a high function board of directors or, , whatever that might be. [00:16:10] And so we have a network of just over a thousand mentors and you know, those range from Ariana Huffington for the late Desmond too, to Seth Godin and others. And those mentors are there for these CEOs, no matter what their need is. To be able to dive in and help out when their expertise really aligns with that need. [00:16:30] , so there’s a huge mentor network component to what we do. Uh, the other thing we realize, and we kind of keep going on this is that, , these fast growing. I’d call ’em high growth ventures, right? I’m about seven years into their life cycle. , they would also benefit immensely from strategic relationships with the world’s largest and oldest institutions. [00:16:51] So the fortune 50 companies or governments around the world. And so, uh, we partner with multinationals, some family offices with government offices, and we connect them into one another, right. Because I know you’re at Nike, , formerly an organization might. Like Nike may want to have zero waste, close loop manufacturing systems. [00:17:13] Well, we have a lot of entrepreneurs who have technologies that are paving the way for that to be possible so we can connect them to each other and they’ll find ways to, , partner up, , or to benefit one another. And lastly is investment. where, as I mentioned earlier, about half the ask we have from our fellows is financing. [00:17:30] And so we work with a network of about a thousand sources of capital. We connect them into those, to our entrepreneurs. We have a syndicate community driven investment arm called the reasonable collective where individuals can now finance and participate in the growth of the ventures that are a part of the unreasonable fellowship. [00:17:47] even if you can only cut a $10,000 check, you might be able to cut a $10 million check either way. You can pull that together. And so. You know, there’s a myriad of approaches that we have. There’s actually more, but if it’s all just come from listening, then that’s it. And just say, what is harvest? [00:18:03] And then we get, and then the answers kind of show themselves, reveal themselves because our, you know, the CEOs we support Tellus, like, Hey, it would be really nice. If you all could unlock this, I might be able to scale 50% [00:18:15]

Simon Mainwaring:
faster. Right, right. No, I, I love all of this because firstly, I want everyone to take away from this, how it needs to be messy necessarily moving forward. [00:18:24] You’ve gotta be listening and adapting and being agile. Secondly, the type of things that you are building around companies for them to scale. I mean, I heard capital, I heard collaboration. I heard community and I heard capacity. Yeah. So if you are a young entrepreneur who wants to change the world, these are things that you need to keep an eye on to build for yourself. [00:18:43] But let me ask you this. I wanna telescope out to those. Darker angels of our nature. We’re always appealing to our better angels, but there are those out there who would say, okay, you’re talking about entrepreneurship and its capacity to transform, or course correct our future, but there’s no way in hell. [00:19:00] They’re gonna overcome certain forces that include, but not limited to legacy industries, like, you know, oil and gas that are lobbying and fighting back. It might be the aspiring middle class in certain markets around the world that want their day at the banquet table of capitalism. It might be the growing number of, uh, the vast majority of people around the world that live under $6 a day who are just trying to get clean drinking water. [00:19:26] Yes. How on earth is the most. Passionate entrepreneur ever gonna overcome the inertia or the resistance of these forces within the timeframe we’re working against. Ah, [00:19:38]

Daniel Epstein:
great question within the timeframe, because when it, when it comes to things like the climate crisis, right. Winning slowly is the same thing as losing timeliness matters. [00:19:49] Impatience is a virtue in so many ways I am. And so my response, there’s a, there’s a lot of responses. That’s a big question. I mean, one is just looking at capitalism itself, right? I think, you know, our belief is that for better or worse, capitalism is the most powerful tool of our time. You could very easily argue for worse. [00:20:08] but it happens to be that I would say the analogy that I love to use is looking at capitalism as a tool. It’s the most powerful tool of our time? Well, a hammer is just a. [00:20:19] Uh, and a hammer can be used to build a house or destroy a home, right? What matters is the consciousness or the intention of the individual wielding that hammer? So capitalism is just a tool. It is agnostic. It can be used for exploitation and extraction, or it can be used for inclusivity and, , creating a regenerative future. [00:20:38] And our question is how do we lever the most powerful tool of our time to create that future? We all wanna step into, . It’s hard is the second response. You know what? You just cited a number. Statistics. That’s the reality we’re operating within. And this is why we’re looking for our reasonable people, but we wanna support companies like, like D light D light had, you know, looked across the African continent and across much of south Southeast Asia on Asia Pacific and realized that electrification is a huge problem right now that there’s over a billion people, don’t have access to electricity, let alone renewable electricity. [00:21:13] So they came in and they solved the problem and they created an ultra affordable, um, solar kits. Um, and today they’ve brought solar over a hundred million individuals who didn’t formally have electricity. They did. So in a way that saves them money, that they can apply towards education and healthcare. [00:21:29] so I think the. That’s one of 328 examples that we have. and that’s where we’re trying to discover the globe and find, , beacons for a brighter future, right? In market solutions that are solving these problems that seem intractable. And then we try to give them this kind of unfair, collaborative advantage into the future. [00:21:51] So they, they, they have better odds of succeeding, cuz there is no guarantee, to your point. but I would, I would personally, , my orientation to looking at the world’s greatest challenges and these. Desperately hard problems is not to throw my hands up in the air and give up it’s to say, hang on. [00:22:09] There are people on the front lines who have solutions to these challenges. We just need to magnify those and grow. And you know, you highlighted, , examples like oil and gas companies, right. Of potentially lobbying against this and, and to date so much of that. Is true. What you just highlighted. , but what is also happening now is a realization across industry almost everywhere. [00:22:31] , not everywhere, but almost everywhere that things have to change that we don’t have a future. let alone a good P and L if we don’t actually change our ways of operating it. And so, you know, recently we partnered with shell as an example, , and the goal is by 2035 to have carbon neutral, , energy across the entirety of Shell’s business. [00:22:51] , now they know that’s important. They know they have to do that, but how they do that is a very hard question that they don’t have an answer to. And that’s where, when we partner with them, we align them with solutions that are inherently scalable, that can help take them to a sustainable future faster and do it profitably. [00:23:07] And I think that that’s what everybody wants, but you have to show to, you know, people what’s possible. Someone I looked up to growing up in university was Reverend out here in Colorado. And he used to say, you can’t just show people the light. They need to feel the heat, right. [00:23:22] They actually need to be immersed in whatever that new reality is that you wanna shape. And this is why we, we host gatherings, private gatherings, all around the world for these multinationals and governments to meet with the entrepreneurs that we support to have a safe and vulnerable space where they can actually talk about, Hey, what might the future look like that we all wanna step into? [00:23:42] and that’s a critical part to it is the humanness of what we do. [00:23:46]

Simon Mainwaring:
You know, you talked about a few terms here that are so critical and so deep to, you know, close to my heart, which is integrity and humanness. And as you say, feeling the heat, the warmth of these efforts, but I want to kind of like, because you’re, so at the bleeding edge of innovation at scale, I wanna sort of press in with some of the questions I struggle with in the sense that, , on one hand we have integrity of intent and action. [00:24:07] Yeah. On the other hand, we have the reality of, for example, family officers and, um, venture firms that wanna support companies like this. But then you’ve got institutional investors that are risk averse and they just don’t wanna put their capital on us. It’s an unknown quantity and they suffer from short termism. [00:24:24] That’s just one stakeholder group. Yes. At the same time you’ve got consumers and arguably employees who default in the moment on the strength of all their entrained behavior from the past to what’s cheapest, fastest, and most convenient, despite their concern about the future. So here we are with just two representative stakeholder groups that sort of dramatize that we’re talking out of both sides of our mouth half the time. [00:24:48] Yeah. We look at the headlines every day, we’re concerned. And I love what you said about giving these entrepreneurs an unfair advantage. Mm-hmm building that sort of coalition around them. That gives them a greater chance of success, but how do we sort of suspend. Healthy self-interest or suspend selfishness while still celebrating healthy self-interest and elevate the collective benefit through these companies and entrepreneurship, because otherwise we’re gonna half step our way to the future. [00:25:18] And as you say, going further slow is failure, you know? Yeah, yeah, [00:25:22]

Daniel Epstein:
yeah. Totally. Right. Totally. Even being right. Slowly is gonna lead to failure. Yeah. No one wants [00:25:28]

Simon Mainwaring:
to be standing on the, uh, at the demise of humanity going. I told you [00:25:33]

Daniel Epstein:
and that’s right. No, no win. No one. No. Well it’s interest. I, I had friend who had said that You know, nobody wants to die and on their epitaph, have it read, maintain the status quo. Right. And that’s what 99% of the population does with their careers. Yeah. Um, and so there, there’s a, uh, there’s a paradox in that nobody wants and yet many people do it. , I think though that there, there is a ground swell of change. [00:26:00] That is coming to markets. And I think that if we can do anything, all of us together, , we just need to serve as an accelerant for that change. And an example is our, our largest multinational partner is Barclays. That is an over 330 year old financial institution as a hard institution to change quickly, as you can imagine, it is heavily regulated as well. [00:26:21] Um, we partnered with them about seven years ago and I think it was maybe three years ago or so. Um, so a couple years into our partnership, Barclays launched the first ever sustainable impact investment bank on wall street. It was the first new coverage group they had launched as a bank in 90. Years, right. [00:26:38] I, and they’ve changed the core practices of the bank. The investment bank is now orienting towards this as part, uh, in large part, the fastest growing division of their bank globally. , the private bank, right? The individuals, the family offices, they work with, they’re all saying, Hey, we want opportunities that don’t just have good returns, but that we’re proud to tell our kids about, and that are gonna leave. [00:26:58] You know, we’re borrowing this world for future generations. and we wanna leave it to them in a, in a better spot than we found it. Um, and so the private bank is oriented in this direction. The commercial bank is oriented into this direction. , and we’re seeing real change and we’re seeing real capital flow. [00:27:12] And so if I. You know, we can change the operations towards a better future of, an over 330 year old, you know, global financial institution. . And I don’t know, what’s stopping us from seeing that change everywhere else, but their quote unquote competitors in the market. Right. Need it to be validated. [00:27:32] , and once it’s market validated, which it, which is being validated right now in so many ways, , then I think they’ll all start to fall into place. And what it takes is those unreasonable people. It kind of gets back to that. It’s not just the entrepreneurs, right? We need to partner with C-suites who also of, of these very large institutions or, um, you know, very high up individuals in policy. [00:27:54] , we’re also able to say, hang on, something’s not right here, this future that we’re going, that we’re on this, you know, linear line towards is extremely, , scary. , and so I need to do something differently. So we find those unreasonable individuals. Cause at the end of the day, businesses are just people , and then we try to create partnerships that will lead to change in those institutions as well, with the hope that it cataly [00:28:15]

Simon Mainwaring:
elsewhere. [00:28:15] Yeah. And, and when I, that word find is so sort of loaded. Because not only are you giving your heart and soul to your business, but you don’t wanna compromise your integrity by those you bring to the table. So how do you vet your partners, especially in the context of the whole sort of shiny scroll that ESG has been and the fall outta that conversation and the necessary maturation and sophistication evolution of metrics, all those moving parts. [00:28:41] How do you, again, in the strength of being unreasonable over time, really, , pre-qualify those partners as a long term fit. [00:28:48]

Daniel Epstein:
Ah, great question. We do not do sponsorship. We only do partnerships and what I, what I mean by that is. If the change that they’re asking for in the world is not directly relate to their core profit model as a business, we won’t work with them. [00:29:06] I am. So we’ve said no to a lot of, , partnerships who, who, people who would know the contracts would think we were crazy. , but it was because it felt like sponsorship. And I’d say sponsorship feels like Astro turf. Like everybody knows it’s not real. Right. And so what we need to see in the partners that, that we vet and inevitably work with is that the change towards sustainability inclusivity matters to the core function of their profit model. [00:29:32] And that we can then see in. Pivotable case where 10 years from now, if they have, if, if shell hasn’t figured out how to get off of fossil fuels and transition into a renewable future, they’re gonna be irrelevant, , probably a decade and a half from now or so they’ll be completely irrelevant. [00:29:46] And so we can see that. And then what we wanted, , also, , , understand is that their C-suite is aligned with this agenda and that they, and that they damn well, meaning it, uh, is a really key aspect to that because if you have to get to the top level of the company, ideally the board and the C-suite, and to see a sincerity of interest, uh, and a sense of business self-interest into maybe the midterm and long term that they have to figure this out. [00:30:13] And then, and then we’ll work with them. But, you know, if, if shell wanted to work with us on, I literacy as an example, right? About 700 million adults. Can’t read the sentence. They’re functionally illiterate worldwide. . If they wanted to work with us on a literacy, we would say, no, Because that does not matter, even though it is a great thing to do that does not matter to the core of their business. [00:30:34] And if we don’t help transform the core of their business, it, it doesn’t matter. , but we will work with Pearson and we have worked with Pearson, the world’s largest education company on solving a literacy, cuz that deeply matters to the core of where they’re trying to head into the [00:30:47]

Simon Mainwaring:
future. So their relevance is really important. [00:30:49] And let me, I’m gonna swap some cheat, cheat sheet with you. Yeah. When we go into a large company or a SLT, a senior leadership team or an ELT, and you have different constituents there from different parts of a company, you’ve got the champion who wants to be purposeful, but there’s always someone frowning at you from the other end of the room. [00:31:05] You can feel the shadow fall on you and you walk in, right? You’re like, oh no, I can hear da DA’s voice in the background. Yeah. And typically what we find to oversimplify is that you make the business case for. You know, be becoming more purposeful and scaling impact in terms of the data that’s out there. [00:31:22] Secondly, you look at the competitive set and say, look at what others are doing in your industry, just as a kind of point of reflection. And then thirdly, look at a cost benefit analysis of doing it. So what will it cost you to do it? And, you know, what’s the benefit, but also a cost benefit analysis of [00:31:39]

Daniel Epstein:
not doing of an action. [00:31:40]

Simon Mainwaring:
Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything you’d add to that list cuz you’ve been in those rooms you’ve won over those partners? [00:31:46]

Daniel Epstein:
Yeah. I mean the, the other side. To it, I do believe is, is the human side to it. The actual individuals who are, yeah, ideally on the same side of the table, but maybe in that first meeting, they’re on the other side of the table. [00:32:00] Do they, as people genuinely care, right? Does this matter for them and their lives and with their families and the legacy that they wanna leave? And the answer almost unanimously is, is yes. But what I will say is we do have an internal policy, we call it the no assholes policy. , and we actually mean that where if, , motivation matters is, is the other thing that I would say, when we identify and then select CEOs to bring into the reasonable fellowship, we say, look, profit is a neutral thing. [00:32:27] Profit is a tool. It could be used for bad or good. We only wanna work with companies who leverage profit as a tool for a better future, but profiteering as a sole motivation in and of itself, That’s not what we wanna align with. Yeah. That’s a great distinction. Yeah, yeah. Right. I am. And so part of that comes down to the people. [00:32:45] Now, the people will change, but I think you can get a genuine sentiment of the human motivations of, of a board or C-suite, um, or an SLT use those words. I’m by really asking by, you know, getting a little bit into their story. And that’s an important part of what we do because the, the commitments they have with us are, are pretty substantial. [00:33:05] It’s at least a number of years up front. They have no rights. Warranties guarantees, preferences, contractual obligations, with any of the ventures whatsoever. What they get the chance to do is build trusted. Real relationships. , so that then when that entrepreneur, you know, in Barclay’s case, when, when they wanna have an IPO two or three years later, they look across all the investment banks that exist, you know, the Goldman and the bank of American, JP Morgan and others. [00:33:31] Well, they all kind of look the same. They’re probably gonna work with the one where the C-suite offered to help them and never ask for anything in return. Right. Cause they have a trusted human relationship. And so it’s a hard ask is, is what I’m getting at. You know, what we ask our partners to commit to upfront And so it’s all of those things you mentioned. And, and I do believe that like the humanity of them also really matters as part of that deal. [00:33:54]

Simon Mainwaring:
And, you know, in the context of how we get this done in time, it was interesting. I was speaking an event not long ago. And somebody said at the end, you know, you do a Q and a, and they go, do you think we’ll get there in time? [00:34:05] And I thought for a minute, and then I said for who? Mm, very true. Because I think it’s gonna be a huge shakeout. And I think just, you know, that is context. Given these contracting timelines that we’re working against. I feel we almost need to be more discerning about where we invest our time than before, because I know when I started, we first, absolutely 12 years ago, you’re talking to everyone, but I feel like we don’t have a cha the luxury of time now to talk to everyone. [00:34:31] And do you find, you need to speak to those who are so, you know, selecting and saying we wanna be involved or those who are still on the fence, but you can’t convince everybody just in terms of the how of [00:34:40]

Daniel Epstein:
getting it done. Oh, interesting. That is a really good question as well. Um, yeah, we do need to self-select. [00:34:48] So at an example, we just, we just started a new partnership. It’s called a reasonable change and, and. Co-founded it with Accenture. , that was really intentional cause Accenture . I dunno if you know the stat, it’s shocking. Anybody’s listening. Look it up because it’s real. They have over 700,000 employees. [00:35:04] They are by far the largest, , consulting firm on the planet by far. , what that means is arguably the most, they’re the most influential firm in the world. And so if we can work with Accenture to help show these solutions that can properly take us to a much better future, well, then they can permeate all of their clients, which is basically every large company government in the world to help shift them faster. [00:35:28] And so very strategic, , partnership. And one, one that, , we both kind of sought each other out, but when we sat down it was like, okay, we have to make this work. Um, because when we talk about faster transformation, once they have the solutions and the tools and the platforms, they’re gonna take us to that better future, they can then disseminate that across all their clients. [00:35:47] , And so that’s, that’s a good example of it. And yes, I think a big part is learning how to say no. Um, right. I am. And I think that focus, on really key leverage points, uh, really matters. And to your point, I used to say that I was an optimist and I was an impatient optimist. Right. I believe we could get there, but we can’t do it fast enough. [00:36:07] And today, if I’m more candid, I would say I’m a possible list. Mm-hmm , I’m not an optimist. Mm-hmm I think either future is possible, right? I am. And what it’s gonna take is a lot of will from a lot of people to orient and move the direction, you know, the needle in the right direction. Um, we need a lot more people to become unreasonable in that sense. [00:36:28] And, um, and I think part of getting more people to do it is to show the stories of how effective it works, um, and how win, win, win, win solutions are. And [00:36:38]

Simon Mainwaring:
I wanna speak to that timeline. You mentioned because you know, any an entrepreneur, whether they’re a, so entrepreneur or they’ve got a high growth company or whatever, you know, they look at the headlines every day as well. [00:36:47] And they wonder probably in the cocoon that working in, you know, are we getting far enough fast enough? And, and why should we be optimistic about the future or a possible list as you say. And here’s how I see it. I feel like we’ve been all sitting in a car hurtling towards a cliff for a long time. [00:37:02] Mm-hmm and we kicked the can down the road, despite the knowledge of the impact we’re having on the planet that makes our life possible and business possible in the fifties with Buckminster follow through to the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, 2002 thousands and 10, 2020. And here we are, you know, white knuckling and mashing our teeth. [00:37:18] When we suddenly find, as we’re about to go over the cliff, we’ve gotta grab the wheel and throw really hard to avoid our, our own demise. But what I also realize is that. We’re in the first 15% of that 15 degree change in that 90 degree turn and the inertia to go back to where you were was the strongest. [00:37:38] But as you get past 15% or 15 to 30%, if you get to 30 to 60%, these market forces take on a life of their own and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and then a hundred percent, what we’re doing now becomes self evident. So we’re just in the grind, the, the real head down, you know, hands on the wheel moment. [00:37:55] Would you agree or what’s your [00:37:56]

Daniel Epstein:
perspective? Well, a hundred percent. And I think history has shown this always at least, at least it’s posted like the agricultural revolution. You a story I love to tell, and it’s really good with visual, but as if you go back to 1900 in Manhattan, there were all these publications and headlines that this thing called the automobile was a monstrosity that it was expensive. [00:38:16] It was complicated. It would never. Ever take over the horse buggy, why would it? Right? Um, it was way too hard. And so in 1900 you have less than 1% market adoption in Manhattan of automobiles. You fast forward to 1913, you have 81% market adoption, everything completely changed. Right? And, and that is you. [00:38:36] We had to invent a new, , manufacturing process from scratch. We had to create a new road infrastructure. We had to train a whole generation of workers and, you know, complex operations and maintenance of these really. Complicated machines. But in essence, what happened is the market tipped in the moment you have that S curve in adoption and the market tips, , where it was, is no longer relevant. [00:38:58] , and we can look at that with the internet. We can look at that with cell phones. We can look at that with, , most technologies that are now normal 10 years ago, or at least 20 years ago seemed impossible. I, and so to your point, , I think it’s much healthier. I’m gonna use what you said, which is build the world today out of the future that we feel is inevitable versus off of where we’re currently at or off the past, because, , the rapid change in technology, , is , helping us get there faster. [00:39:27]

Simon Mainwaring:
And I love what you said about the, you know, the adoption of the car. You think about that that was 1913. So in 13 years, 81% adoption. Just look at the auto industry in 2008, 2009, 2010, everyone tried to run Elon Musk out of town. And yet now really 10 plus years later, every major us auto maker was committed to alternative vehicles phase out. [00:39:47] Yes, it’s it it’s, you know, this happened in a decade, arguably the most entrenched and sort of institutional industry in the us. Yeah. You know, and that transforms. So what, what, everything is possible. Everything’s on the table then you’ve seen so many entrepreneurs at different stages. I mean, 300 plus at any one time, what would you say is the most important quality and entre needs to have to get through this moment in time? [00:40:13] And what is the, the most pervasive or costly Achilles heel that you’ve observed in all this deal flow of like purposeful entrepreneurs. Oh, interesting. [00:40:24]

Daniel Epstein:
, so your first question, the characteristics I have. Maybe I would say great entrepreneurs and part, part of greatness to me is what are they doing in the world? [00:40:33] Like, does it actually matter? Not just if they’re successful, but um, what are they doing in the world? And I think that, , the thing that we’ve seen is that the greatest entrepreneurs of our time, they, they have this paradoxical blend of confidence and humility, right. They have enough confidence to believe. [00:40:51] Hang on. There is a global problem out there that I can actually help move the needle on by willing the solution into existence and taking it, , to, you know, global scale that takes a whole lot of confidence. right. But that is matched in equal weight with humility. , and that’s really important. Right. [00:41:08] And it’s humility to. So that the solution that maybe got us from, you know, zero to one is likely not the solution’s probably gonna break when we go from one to four and it’s gonna break again when we go from four to six, whatever that is. So they have enough humility to acknowledge that, um, the solution’s gonna change. [00:41:22] They have enough humility to realize that the greatness of what they achieve will be set within the quality of the people they surround themselves and the greatness, the intelligent, and the heart of their team. That it’s not certainly not all on them or anywhere close to that. They have enough humility to realize that if we’re actually gonna solve this problem globally, we need to be collaborative versus competitive. [00:41:42] Right. All of those types of things. And I, I think that’s the characteristic mindset . That, um, we’ve seen to be really successful. The, the other aspect to that is an obsession with solving the problem. It is not an obsession. It gets back to that humidity. It is not an obsession with your current solution or technology. [00:42:00] Right. Um, that’s kind of the fun part to come up with the technology. I, um, but that’s kind of the sexy part. That’s probably 20% of the job. 80%. The hard part is to actually get them into market and to change behaviors in a way that will lead to that future. , and the only way you’re gonna get through that 80% and all of the rollercoaster of, you know, needing to change your technology again and again and again, and again is if you are absolutely enamored, obsessed, and in a core way, almost in love with needing to solve whatever that problem is in the world. [00:42:31] There has to be so much meaning think associated with it. Or also at some point you’re gonna take an easier route. . So I think that that’s critical. That was the first part of the question. What [00:42:39]

Simon Mainwaring:
second Achilles heel, what is the biggest blind spot? Weakness, for example, I might volunteer one self-care mm-hmm [00:42:48] I see so many young entrepreneurs leave everything on the line and not look after themselves in a way that enable them to do it over the long term. [00:42:55]

Daniel Epstein:
Yes, self-care would be a massive one. And, but this ties to, um, A lot of people say being a CEO is the loneliest job in the world. That’s like a common quote or expression . [00:43:06] And I think that that’s a choice And the reason it becomes so lonely is, is there’s a fear for a whole bunch of reasons of asking for help. I am. And so I, I think the biggest mistake CEOs make is they don’t ask for help. They don’t have the, uh, they don’t create the conditions in which they feel like they could be vulnerable and an, an analogy that, um, I, I really love. [00:43:28] It’s kind of a fable that we tell is a story of a, a mom and her daughter. And they’re walking through the woods after a big storm. And there’s a branch that’s fallen across the path, right. It’s big, like Oak branch, it’s heavy. A daughter, you know, walks up to the branch with your mom. She says, mom, do you think I can lift. [00:43:43] And she goes, well, yeah, if you use all your strength, I promise you can move this branch. And so the little girl bends down, tries to move. The branch pulls one side, pulls the other side, she’s struggling. She started to get frustrated. She can’t move it. It’s not budget. She gets really mad at her mom. She says, mom, you promised I can move this. [00:43:58] And I can’t even budget. And she said, I promised you could, if you used all your strength, you never ask me for help. So of course the girl asked the mom for help and then they move it. Wow. And I think there’s a mythology of the loan entrepreneur that does not [00:44:12]

Simon Mainwaring:
work guilty is charged. Guilty is charged [00:44:16]

Daniel Epstein:
hundred percent. [00:44:16] Me too. Yeah. And it’s, it’s like, it is why even founded unreasonable was re like feeling desperately alone. Right. That I have to go at it on my own that, you know, I’m the only person who sees this worldview, whatever that is . And we end up building our own prison. This also relates to mental health and wellbeing to your point as well. [00:44:35] Right. And so it’s about raising our hands and asking for help. And that is the number one thing I feel like we give entrepreneurs in the unreasonable fellowship permission to do, and then we give ’em a community of support who’s there when they raise their hand and say, I need help. They rapidly show up, um, to help solve. [00:44:51] And I idea around that [00:44:52]

Simon Mainwaring:
challenge and I’m gonna, like, I’m gonna be greedy, cuz I’ve got limited time with you. And I, I know we dive off a series of high boards all at once into different topics. one is you mentioned consumer behavior a moment ago without adoption. Doesn’t matter how good your tech or idea or passion is? [00:45:06] Any advice you give about how is it storytelling? Is it narrative? What drives new consumer behavior? So these entrepreneurs can get it. Hmm, [00:45:16]

Daniel Epstein:
two thoughts. , one of our values is empathy builds empires. I am, and that if you really wanna speak to your customers or consumers or users, , you need to first listen deeply, right? [00:45:26] With all of your senses, not just your ears, um, but all of them. And then I think the solutions end up becoming apparent. I am. And that’s the only way that you can effectively story tell, um, as well is you really understand the motivations and where, where those, um, end users or. Customers are really coming from. [00:45:43] , the second side is authenticity, which is be real right? Once again, sponsorship feels like AstroTurf. Everybody knows it’s fake. Everybody also knows no organization is perfect. And so I think that, , brands who come out into the world and say, Hey, this is something we believe matters. We’re dedicated to trying to figure it out. [00:46:02] But let me tell you the three ways where we mistepped and how we’re course correcting along the way. And by the way, we can’t do this alone. We need others to come join us on this and to learn from them like making yourself authentic means making yourself vulnerable and thereby permeable. And I think in today’s world, , consumers are smart. [00:46:20] Uh, and they’re no longer gonna put up with green washing or whatever type of washing we’re talking about because there’s basically every type. And so, yes, it’s great to have the intention to ha to, uh, you know, carry things forward in a way that. Benefits, um, the world, but, uh, it’s also really important to admit that you’re not there yet. [00:46:40] , and to admit when you’ve made mistakes to own those mistakes and then to also share, Hey, here’s the learning that we had along the way. and that, creates brands that people are loyal to because , they’re human in a way. Yeah. Right. [00:46:51]

Simon Mainwaring:
And, and I know that you’ve taken a break recently, you took a sabbatical and I wanted to ask you, which is just total kind of 180 degrees. [00:46:59] why do you, why do you do that? And what does it do for [00:47:02]

Daniel Epstein:
you? Amazing question. So we, we have a company policy it’s the seventh year sabbatical. If you’ve worked with us full time for seven or for six years on your seventh year, you can take a six month sabbatical. That benefits are covered the whole time. [00:47:14] The first three months it’s full pay. Second three months is half pay. I am someday that’ll be full pay. We just don’t have enough money right on now in the books. Right. Um, so I did take a sabbatical. We have three ma three teammates who are actively on sabbatical right now. And for me, why take a sabbatical? [00:47:32] There’s a, there’s a number of reasons, but, um, maybe I’ll I’ll point to nature, um, as a source of inspiration, right? Seasons matter in nature, like you need to have, uh, seasonality. And if you’re in a place like Colorado, Winter was critical for life. , you have a season where things get darker, things slow down. [00:47:51] And then you have spring, right? Where things inevitably come back up in the summer where it’s all flourishing in the fall, where you transition back. Sure. And I think that we have lost touch with the seasonality of life at work , and that we are, we will all be better off ourselves as individuals, but also our companies. [00:48:09] If we give ourselves and our teammates and our employees, that chance to step back, to pause, to recharge, to rethink, to reimagine them to step back into that role. I think the last thing though, is, is similar to nature. It also leads to amazing resili. If I’m gonna step out of the company for three months as the CEO. [00:48:29] Well, I needed to spend six months planning for that and delegating everything that I do because I was actually gone in essence for three months. Right. Right. And so then I needed to delegate that across the company, which allows all of the team teammates to up level kind of their level of responsibility and leadership. [00:48:44] And it ensures resiliency because too often we have situations. Where if, if a person is pulled out of a company, if you know, God forbid they get hurt or fall ill, but if they step out of the company or whatever that is, then the company’s gonna really. Devastated situation. And, um, this ensures resiliency across the organization so that no one person holds the keys to everything in their role. [00:49:07] And I think that’s really important too, that that [00:49:09]

Simon Mainwaring:
is so important. And I’m gonna go even further and say, I’ve been married 29 years. And one of the things that was a great, , solace to me and, , light bulb was at some point into the, I used to always try and make every day, the best our relationship needed to be a certain way, some expectations, some sort of idea you have in your head. [00:49:27] And when I realized there were seasons where you are friends, when you are like star cross lovers, when you are sort of business partners, it takes a lot of pressure off that as well. So I absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. And I’m gonna, you mentioned nature, we have done a huge disservice by not mentioning nature enough in this conversation. [00:49:44] Absolutely. To what degree does the model you built and unreasonable, whether it’s the sort of ecosystem that you’ve built or your, your. Profound commitment to regenerating the natural world or leveraging its in eight regenerative capacity. How does that inform what you do? Do you look to nature as a model for what you do? [00:50:04] Do you immerse yourself in nature for inspiration? [00:50:07]

Daniel Epstein:
Anything you share there? All the above and more? , so for me, if you ask me, where is my sanctuary, right? Where do I recharge? You know, my, my chapel is wild places. I am without question. , That is also a source of, I believe infinite inspiration around systems thinking. [00:50:24] Uh, and if we think about capitalism or business or investment as a system, which they AB all of those are systems, , if we pull our, uh, inspiration from nature, we’re gonna create a much better world I am, because what you see, um, at least what I’ve found when you look really closely at nature, , you don’t just see sustainable systems. [00:50:42] You see thrivability right. You see these systems where one species exists because of the other, because of the other, because of the other, because of the other, , and that they only exist when they can coexist together in a place, , where they’re all better off. and so I, yeah, nature is, is almost everything to me in some ways. [00:51:03] , and we cannot forget that we as humans are part of nature. I, I think one of the. Greatest diseases arguably of our time. It’s not, COVID 19, it’s disconnection, right? Disconnection from ourselves, from each other. And from the natural world, and so it’s a huge part of my journey is to spend time in wild places. [00:51:21] And it’s a huge motivator for the work that we do, which is how do we preserve these places, but then also how do we allow them to inspire, , the next generation of business? To act more like the natural world, cuz we’d all benefit. No, [00:51:35]

Simon Mainwaring:
I, I couldn’t agree more. And you know, for those listening, these are not personal preferences. [00:51:39] These, this is the doing of building businesses that thrive and get it done. And , I wanna ask one last question. You know, everyone, hopefully not every day, but more so than not looks at their phone every day. And it’s easy to be disheartened by the various headlines that are out there. Yes. [00:51:57] Climate anxiety is real, especially amongst younger generations. It feels like despite being more hands on the rock with the rock that SSUS is pushing up the hill is still very heavy each day. What’s your answer to climate anxiety or flip it the other way? You know, what, what gives you cause for optimism looking [00:52:15]

Daniel Epstein:
forward? [00:52:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for me, it’s just the nature of the work that we do. So, , if you’re ever curious, uh, if anybody’s ever curious about, , real solutions, I believe are replacing the incumbent business models that are exploitative. If you went just to our website, reasonable group.com, you would see hundreds of real solutions that are in market that are working. [00:52:34] And although it may sound like science fiction, right? . I mentioned this earlier, but Lonza tech is a company that can capture carbonide carbon dioxide, methane that ferment that into jet fuel. So Virgin, Atlantic and United now fly their airliners on recycled carbon because of their technology, like sounds like science fiction. [00:52:51] It’s non-fiction it’s real. So part of it is immerse yourself on the other side of the headlines, right? The people and solutions that are doing everything in their ability and power to change those headlines and narratives that we see every day find those solutions. But the second part is become a part of the solution. [00:53:06] right, right. And I think that’s where the motivation and inspiration happens is when we start to dedicate ourselves towards building a better future, instead of just throwing our hands up in the air, a lot of us don’t know where to start, and this is part of what we’re trying to do at a reasonable now is make it accessible. [00:53:24] So if you’re an individual investor, who’s looking for. Yes, phenomenal financial returns, but also investments that you’ll be proud to be a part of that build a better future. That’s why we built the unreasonable collective for individuals, not just institutions. If you’re, you know, looking to get into the job market and want to become a part of what, you know, one of these companies, that’s making a better world, we have just jobs dot reasonable group.com and every open job that’s available in the 328 companies we support is posted there every single one and it’s automatically updated. [00:53:57] I would just immerse yourself as it’s in, find the solutions and then try to become a part of those that really resonate with your soul. Um, and so the reason I can be, um, still a sist and not a pessimist is because I am just surrounded by solutions that when they do realize their full potential, if we can do it fast enough, I am, we’re gonna be living in a much better tomorrow. [00:54:21]

Simon Mainwaring:
You know, one of the reasons I so admire unreasonable Daniel is because for exactly the reasons you said, do go to the website and check it out because you provide opportunity, you provide community and you provide scale of impact. And what you said is so important that you are optimistic because of the work we do. [00:54:38] If we want to feel better about our future, it’s found in the. Yes. Not just sitting on the [00:54:44]

Daniel Epstein:
sidelines. Absolutely. Right. Couldn’t agree [00:54:47]

Simon Mainwaring:
more. Yeah. And so, and so I encourage everyone to go to unreasonable, check it out, see where you might play a role and Daniel, thank you for your leadership. And just look forward to seeing where these unreasonable companies, where they take our future. [00:55:00] And, and it gives us a lot of cause for optimism. So thank you so much. [00:55:03]

Daniel Epstein:
Uh, thank you, Simon. You are too kind. Uh, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I know that we share the same ethos and values. I can even tell more. So from, from this conversation, anybody who’s tuning in, I know times your most expensive asset. [00:55:17] And so I appreciate you lending us your ears, hopefully your hearts and minds, um, for this conversation I look forward, hopefully working [00:55:22]

Simon Mainwaring:
with you. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Daniel. [00:55:26]

Daniel Epstein:
Yeah. Thank you. [00:55:28]

Simon Mainwaring:
Thanks for joining us for another episode of lead with we, our show is produced by goal 17 media, and you can always find more information about our guests in the show notes of each episode. [00:55:39] Make sure you follow lead with we on apple podcasts, Spotify, or Google podcasts. If you really love the show, share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you’re looking to go even deeper into the world of purposeful business, check out my new book and wall street journal bestseller lead with we, which is available, Amazon barn and noble and Google books. [00:55:58] See you again soon, and until then, let’s all lead with we