Wes Carter:
Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here

Simon Mainwaring:
Wes, for those who don’t know Atlantic Packaging, this is a third generation company. This is something you’ve been involved with your entire life. I’ve always been fascinated by generational organizations. What was it like? Is this something that you wanted to step into from the outset or did your father or grandfather coerce you?

Wes Carter:
Atlantic has obviously just been a part of my life since I can remember. My grandfather started the company in 1946 and my father has run it since 1972. And there was a point in my life where when I was getting out of school, trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And I wasn’t sure necessarily that Atlantic was it, you know, when you’re young and you’re trying to find your way.

Simon Mainwaring:
Sure.

Wes Carter:
However, I knew that my grandfather and my father had built an organization that was highly respected. They did it the right way. They treated people well. My father’s always had a reputation for being an incredibly shrewd entrepreneur and a fair business person. And so I remember there was a moment when I said, “This is a heck of an opportunity for me. I’m going to invest some time here and see if there’s a fit for me.” And it turned out was.

Simon Mainwaring:
And what are some of the memories from way back when, when you were just growing up, when you had this generational business? I’d be fascinated to hear, did you walk around the factories? Did you see the innovations? Did it capture your imagination back then?

Wes Carter:
Well, the company has been through a lot of evolutions. We actually started as a weekly newspaper. And when I was a kid, Atlantic obviously was a lot smaller back then. And we were more of a regional packaging and paper house. And so my memories of going to visit my grandfather at his office in Tabor City, there was still a lot of newspaper printing presses around, and back then we were selling pens and pencils and office supply and things like that. So I remember those days from when I was a really young kid. And our original packaging business was focused on the textile industry. So we were doing a lot of paper board converting for the textile industry then. We still do today. But back then, that was the bulk of our business. And then I started working in the warehouse in Wilmington, North Carolina when I was a teenager, which was real work. In the Southeast United States in July, it’s warm, working in a warehouse house, but I learned how to-

Simon Mainwaring:
Sure, sure.

Wes Carter:
I learned how to drive a forklift and got exposed mainly to the people of Atlantic. I think that was really the first thing that drew me in was I recognized that this organization that my father had created, that my grandfather had founded, had a really unique culture, people who were really committed to the organization. And so, yeah, my early memories are sweeping floors and learning how to drive forklifts. And I think I even ran into a few things along the way and knocked some things over. My dad always wanted me to learn from the ground up. So I did a lot of different jobs. I mean, I even drove a delivery truck for a while, which was probably a little dangerous for a 16 year old kid, but it was sort of trial by fire.

Simon Mainwaring:
I totally get it. And when you took over the leadership, you saw the rise of sustainable practices inside the company. Was that already underway or was that something that you brought to the table because you were so passionate about it?

Wes Carter:
Well, when I first joined the company, it was probably 20 plus years ago. And like I said, I worked my way up through the organization and did lots of different jobs. And then once I became president, that was about the time where sustainability was starting to be a buzzword in packaging. Walmart had released the Sustainability Scorecard. And so you were starting to hear about sustainability, but it was really… It was one of those things where it was kind of an add-on. Customers were interested in sustainability as sort of an extra value add. Hey, if you can give me a nice value proposition and save us money and also it can be more sustainable, we’ll check that box. But it wasn’t necessarily a priority for most organizations. And our packaging business traditionally had been a lot of business to business packaging, like logistical packaging, where we’re packaging unit loads, pallets of goods that are traveling through the supply chain.

Wes Carter:
But once I became president, we’re in an age of technology where e-commerce is becoming more and more prevalent, and so our packaging business was still dominated by business to business. But more and more, we were servicing customers that were shipping parcels direct to consumers with this rise of e-commerce. And that has continued and continued and continued. And so a lot of the traditional packaging that goes into parcel packaging is single-use plastic.

Wes Carter:
And so I began to, along with our leadership… We began to recognize that things were changing, we were servicing multiple parts of the supply chain. And a lot of the packaging that we were selling was ending up in the hands of the consumers and had the potential to end up in the environment. And so all those things really culminated for me over the last several years. But really the evolution of my awakening to our impact on things like plastic pollution and how we could influence a transition away from that really coincided with just how our economy evolved and how technology evolved, and just the rise of e-commerce where so much more packaging was going to the homes of everyday humans all over the globe, really.

Simon Mainwaring:
Right. And that’s so true during COVID. I mean, all our lives have been funneled through our front door in a sense. What’s it like sitting front and center at the forefront of this debate? Because on the one hand, packaging touches almost every business’s life. And at the other hand, it also is perhaps the biggest opportunity to manage waste and control our impact on the environment. And you’re sitting at the intersection of the demands of business and the demands of the environment. So does it feel like a hot seat? What’s it like?

Wes Carter:
Honestly, it feels more like a privilege. It feels more like a privilege. You mentioned COVID. I do believe, and I talk about this a lot that one of the silver linings for COVID was it created an awareness of packaging and packaging waste that I’m not sure any other scenario could have created. I mean, a global pandemic where you send people all over the world home for two years. And at that same time, we were at an intersection with technology where you could get anything delivered to your house from your telephone. And one of the big moments for me, honestly, I was driving through my neighborhood and I saw every trash can and every recycling bin just overflowing with packaging. And I had friends that were reaching out to me and saying, “Hey, man, I’ve got all this packaging at my house. I don’t know how to dispose of it. I don’t know what’s recyclable.”

Wes Carter:
And I’m talking with the leadership at Atlantic, and we just started to become aware that, you know what? We are actually in a really significant position to have an influence on this. And what we didn’t have in the past was consumer awareness. people just didn’t really think about where the bubble wrap goes or where the foam packaging… It was just, “This is just the stuff that gets my products to my house.” But all of a sudden with COVID because there was such an enormous glut of all of that stuff going to everyone’s houses, people started asking those questions.

Wes Carter:
And Atlantic is a unique company in the fact that we sit in the middle of the supply chain. We don’t manufacture a lot of packaging. We distribute packaging, we consult on packaging. We do a lot of packaging optimization where we’re working with large consumer products companies on how to use the least amount of packaging possible. We work a lot with customers on how to reduce damage in the supply chain. We sit between all of these manufacturers of packaging and the consumer products companies and the e-commerce companies that are using packaging. So just the nature of Atlantic, it put us in this privileged position to be kind of an impartial proving ground.

Wes Carter:
I like to tell customers we’re the arbiters of truth. And some of that’s just by the nature of where we sit. We have the ability to go out into the marketplace and evaluate packaging based solely on sustainability. I mean, we can look and say, “What do we believe the most sustainable types of packaging are?” And then present that to the marketplace. When we realized as the largest privately held packaging company in North America, with a seat at the table, with all these large consumer products companies, if we would advocate for sustainable packaging, and more than just advocate, we’re in a position to facilitate the transition, we could have a real impact. And so from that point forward, we really committed all of our energy to doing that work. And it’s an evolution. We continue to refine our offering. And we continue to talk to customers and consumers and people in the recycling infrastructure just to better understand how we can support sustainability on a really large scale.

Simon Mainwaring:
And you mentioned sitting around the boardroom table and just saying, “This is our role within the universe. This is what we’ve got to do.” Was it hard to convince the board to do that? Was it hard? Because one of the great sort of tensions we hear out in the marketplace is we don’t have the time. We don’t have the capital. When we’re back on level footing, when we don’t have a crisis, next quarter, next year, after the annual general meeting or the annual stockholder meeting. So these investments in capital in time to transition to sustainable practices, yes, they’re being driven by consumer demand, but they put pressure on the business. So how did you make that decision and really convince the entire leadership team to absorb those costs?

Wes Carter:
It’s really less about absorbing the costs and more about how do we use technology to optimize packaging to offset the increase in material costs. It’s really about looking at the total cost of the whole packaging platform. And everything can’t always cost more, but in many cases a lot of what we’re doing in sustainability too is right sizing packaging. So everyone’s received a package to their house, whether it be a mailer or a box that’s like the product in is a lot smaller than the box or the mailer itself.

Simon Mainwaring:
Right. I’ve got that one packet of batteries that has like a massive box all around it. I think we all have once.

Wes Carter:
Right. Exactly. And so we talk a lot about rightsizing packaging. So if you can rightsize packaging, you may be able to go to a higher quality, maybe even more expensive material that is potentially a lot more sustainable, but will offset those costs by rightsizing the packaging and reducing packaging waste. In most cases, it’s not a one for one. And I think that’s one of the reasons a company like Atlantic can really bring a lot of value to the marketplace because we built our whole business on the science of packaging, the technology of packaging. So we’re looking at packaging equipment, we’re looking at materials. We’ve got this tremendous technical service arm. We’ve got this R&D center in Charlotte, North Carolina. So we’re really looking at it holistically and delivering solutions to our customers that take into account all of these different costs.

Wes Carter:
And if you do you that really effectively, in many cases, we can present a sustainable solution that can actually create cost savings, or be at a minimum cost neutral. And that’s not always true, but that’s our goal because the reality is if we can find a way to bring a sustainable packaging solution to a customer and is cost neutral, or there’s a cost savings, well, then it happens a lot faster. I will say more and more consumer products companies are willing to invest more for sustainable solutions. And a lot of that’s being driven by consumer demand. However, we are always looking to find a way to tailor it in a way where it extremely cost effective, because again, it’s about expediency. And to me, when you look at the problems of plastic pollution, the time to solve these problems is now. So right. If I can create programs and systems in packaging to make these things happen faster, then that helps everybody including the environment.

Simon Mainwaring:
No, the time is now. I mean, these timelines are contracting towards us as we speak. And one of the things that I guess consumers probably worry about is that sometimes you see brands out there talking about their environmental commitments yet at the same time when their product arrives, there’s all this packaging associated with it. So you almost have a responsibility on behalf of the brands out there that you use your products and so on. And so how do you kind of work with companies, with brands, in terms of making sure at the worst it’s purpose washing, at the best, it’s sort of like the necessary evils of getting a product out to their customer. How do you calibrate all of that?

Wes Carter:
Well, one of the things that we’ve talked to our customers a lot about and which I believe is absolutely true, is today, I believe that packaging is a brand attribute. I believe that everyday consumers are judging brands, the ethics of those brands, based on their packaging, at least in part. And so we talk to our customers about that a lot. Let us help you create a sustainable packaging platform for your products, and your customers are going to reward you for that. And we see that more and more. So that’s a big part of how we support those guys is helping them understand what the right solutions are that their customers will respond to.

Simon Mainwaring:
This sounds a bit geeky, but I like you to get jazzed up about packaging. Because I see such an innovation opportunity. You’ve got packaging developed from mushrooms or mycelium. You hear talk of enzymes that can break down plastic packaging. You almost look at the natural world as well. And so much of packaging in a sense in the natural world performs a sort of a use in an organic sense or a regenerative sense. What are some of the innovations that you’re excited about, either you’re doing or that you’re seeing in the packaging space that you think are pointers to where it’s all headed?

Wes Carter:
Yeah. I mean, that’s one of the most things about being in our industry right now. In my 20-plus years in this business, I have never seen anything that was a catalyst for innovation like sustainability is right now. It is driving everybody in packaging to bring new and creative solutions to the marketplace. And it feels like every few months we have the opportunity to bring something new and creative to the marketplace that’s never been done before. So you mentioned mycelium packaging. That’s something I’m really excited about. It’s got its place. And like a lot of these new packaging products, you’ve got to find the right application for them. Certain types of organic packaging, for instance, like mycelium that have to be grown, it’s not tremendously scalable. So you got to find products that are more luxury-item type products, high-value type items, where the cost of the packaging is a lower percentage of the overall product itself.

Wes Carter:
So we look at things like that. But again, I’m really excited about things like that. I’m really excited about really all of these fiber-based solutions in general, because the reason that we really support fiber-based solutions is if it’s fiber-based, in this country that’s primarily wood fiber, paper products, it’s curbside recyclable pretty much everywhere. It’s made for renewable resources. And if it ends up in the environment, in most cases in about 90 days it’s going to be gone. So that’s really where we focused a lot of our attention and energy with our partners is in developing more and more of these fiber-based solutions.

Wes Carter:
And so there’s a lot of creative things happening in the world of paper where machines that are folding paper and creating padding and things like that in really creative ways to protect products and shipping, many things like that are, that are coming to market. And we’re developing a lot of things as well. We developed a product called the Fishbone, which is a really innovative fiber-based product to replace your traditional six-pack rings for like a six-pack of drinks, and it’s a fully fiber-based solution. It was invented by some guys in California, and we’ve helped them bring that to market.

Simon Mainwaring:
You’re asking an Australian if he knows what a six-pack of beer is. Well and truly familiar with that. No, that’s amazing that Fishbone… What is it made out of? Help people understand, what is it actually… Is it fibers that are reconstituted? Is it recycled?

Wes Carter:
Yeah. It’s all made from paper board. It’s all made from virgin paper board, just like any other paper product. We buy the paper board from a paper mill in Europe that’s actually a carbon neutral paper mill. And we convert and print those products in house and we can customize them. We print them. We can do six-packs and four-packs and different types of cans. And we’re working on a lot of products right now. And there are a lot of people in the beverage industry, a lot of large beverage companies, that have made big commitments to be plastic-free. Some of those commitments are as soon as 2025. And so that’s the other really exciting thing too.

Wes Carter:
And again, I can’t reiterate it enough, the thing that is driving sustainability and that can change things the quickest is the people. Consumers at the end of the day have the power. And it’s one of the reasons I like doing interviews like this is just to get the word out there that really the power is in the hands of the consumers, and consumer products companies want to serve customers. And as we as the public demand and reward companies that are making really good decisions about sustainability in their products and their packaging, that’s how this happens the quickest and the most effectively. So again, lots of really cool things coming to market.

Wes Carter:
And again, what we’re primarily focused on is finding new and innovative products to replace single-use plastic. Again, there’s a lot of plastic in the marketplace that is absolutely necessary. We certainly don’t have a war on plastic, but the area that we think is really problematic is single-use plastic that ends up at the homes of everyday people. Because we have to acknowledge that if it ends up at your house or my house, the likelihood that it ends up in the environment is just much higher. And so knowing that, we really want to lean into fiber-based solutions. And again, there’s some really cool innovations in things like hemp packaging. I’m a big fan of hemp. I mean, hemp is an amazing plant. One of the hurdles we have towards hemp packaging right now is we don’t really have a lot of pulping infrastructure for hemp.

Wes Carter:
We got paper mills all over the country that can pulp wood really well, but you don’t pulp hemp the same way. So a lot of what’s going on right now is how do we create the infrastructure to process a lot of these products. Even with the mycelium packaging, there’s not a lot of scale there right now. But again, as customers start to demand these type of products… And maybe demands the wrong word. It’s really reward the consumer products companies bringing these products to market, the investment in sustainable packaging and new innovations will continue to grow, and I think at really a light speed.

Simon Mainwaring:
Is this where policy comes in though? Because as you say, there’s this really positive consumer input where they’re demanding changes, but then you say as well that the mills that actually can pulp hemp and other things aren’t there, they aren’t in place sufficiently yet. I mean, the timelines we’re working against are very, very short. You see large companies out there talking about 2050, 2040, 2030. I don’t feel like they’re close enough. So how do we unlock this tension between the infrastructure that can answer consumer needs in the context of the timelines we’re working against?

Wes Carter:
Yeah. The timelines concern me too. I mean, the most recent studies are showing that humans are putting about 10 million tons of plastic into the oceans every single year, and it’s growing exponentially. I think that’s a surprise to most people. By the year 2040, the expectations are, at the current rates, we’ll be putting 29 million tons of plastic in the ocean. So we’re going to triple the rate of plastic in the ocean. And that’s every single year, in less than 20 years. I talk about this with folks a lot. It’s been a big moment, I mean, a big realization for me. Really, this whole phenomenon of single-use plastics is pretty new. I mean, they really weren’t prevalent in our society until late ’80s, ’90s. But for most of us who were my age and younger, we’ve always lived with plastics. We just sort of innately assumed that this is the way it’s always been. And it hasn’t. So this problem of plastic pollution is very new. And my concern is we ain’t seen nothing yet. I’ve actually been advocating with anybody in government who will listen to me.

Simon Mainwaring:
Anyone who listened, yeah.

Wes Carter:
Anyone who listened to me, that we need to be treating infrastructure, packaging equipment in particular that supports sustainable materials, just like we treat solar panels. Right now, if you put solar panels on your business, there’s a 26% federal tax credit. Well, that’s a big deal. And Atlantic Packaging, we’ve put solar panels throughout our whole network of facilities and we’re continuing to do that. And that 26% federal tax credit was a big help. I mean, it made the ROI much more palatable for us. And I believe if the federal governments around the world would look at sustainable packaging equipment in the same way and tell the consumer products companies, “We’re going to give you a tax incentive if you invest in equipment to run more sustainable materials,” I think you would see a Renaissance. I mean, I think there would be massive investment. It would be good for the economy. It would create jobs, and it would also help the urgency of this issue. So again, I believe that that should be a high priority for the US government and other governments around the world.

Simon Mainwaring:
You are seeing a lot of companies stepping up and changing what they’re doing. For example, Hasbro has announced doing less packaging around some of their toys, and Starbucks is now asking people, it’s customers, to come in and bring their own reusable mug, and you actually have to pay a premium to use one of their cups. So you’re starting to see the brands themselves take responsibility for that. Is that a trend that you see increasing? Have you noticed that as well?

Wes Carter:
Yes, we’ve noticed that. Absolutely. And I really believe that one of the beauties of technology and the technology age that we are in is we have the ability to share those stories and tell those stories on such a broad scale. And so you hear a lot about the shadow side of social media and things like that. However, in this world, you want to talk about collaboration, we’ve never had a tool that allows us to collaborate globally in real time like we do today.

Wes Carter:
And so one of the things that we’re trying to do at Atlantic and with the initiative we launched called A New Earth Project, is it really is an initiative to celebrate and share those wins. Because we can celebrate what one company’s doing and it will influence other companies. We’re working a lot in the outdoor industry right now, because obviously the outdoor industry is hugely focused on sustainable packaging. I mean, the outdoors is the backdrop for their business, so it’s just a very logical place. And so we’re using their stories of transition to really celebrate and tell those stories. We’re at a point in the evolution of our world where we have all the tools to collaborate, to solve these problems today. We have tools like we’ve never had in the history of human existence. And I think that’s a really powerful thing.

Simon Mainwaring:
You know, there is no limit to what’s possible, as you say, when we collaborate. And I know that Atlantic has just been the first packaging company to receive Zero Waste Certification through the TRUE Program at GBCI, which is a huge achievement. Can you help us understand what did it take to achieve that, and are you trying to model things, model behaviors for the rest of the industry?

Wes Carter:
We were really excited to achieve that certification and we’re continuing to make other investments in reducing our carbon. We’re investing in electrification of our fleet. Again, like I mentioned earlier, we’re putting solar throughout our entire network. We’ve gone to all electric forklifts, energy efficient lighting. Really any area where we feel like we can make improvements in our environmental footprint, we are doing that. I’m passionate about it. I think all companies should be taking a hard look at that. But certainly as someone out there in the supply chain who is positioned as what we believe to be the most sustainable packaging company in the world, or at least that’s our goal, we got to walk the walk.

Simon Mainwaring:
Yeah. You have to walk the walk. I mean, you can’t inspire others to change unless you do it yourself, as you say. So Wes, as we reimagine the packaging industry and even business more broadly, what can we learn from nature?

Wes Carter:
To me, nature is the perfect teacher for circularity. Circularity is sort of the buzz word that we hear. We’re all trying to create circular economy, circularity in and packaging. And we have the greatest example of circularity all around us. In nature, there’s lots of trash. Things die, things rot, but there’s zero waste. Nature just naturally is a zero waste environment. And so as we look at modeling modern day human systems, I believe nature is a great place to look. It’s a great example of circularity. And so we’re never going to be as sophisticated as nature. I don’t think that can be the goal. But again, it gives us a great place to look. So as we’re creating these human systems, understanding that anywhere we can create areas to reduce the amount of waste or recapture waste and keep things in circularity, that should always be the goal. And again, we have the perfect backdrop and the perfect example all around us every day.

Simon Mainwaring:
Of all things, what keeps you up at night right now? What would you say is that thing where you’re just like, “Oh my God, we’ve really got to solve for this”?

Wes Carter:
I think the thing that concerns me the most is the waste collection and recycling infrastructure globally is so broken. And it’s pretty broken here in the United States. We don’t even have recycling standards for the most part. Most of the municipal facilities around the country are privately held. And many of those groups do a great job. It’s just not very cohesive. And then when you go to third world countries, I mean, recycling, they don’t even have waste collection in a lot of these countries. And so the amount of plastic and other types of waste and toxic chemicals and things like that that are leaching into our environment is happening at such an alarming rate, that our world being able to turn the tap off and create systems to stop that is very urgent. And that’s a difficult thing, trying to create global coordination on waste collection and recycling.

Wes Carter:
And you do hear a lot out there in the world about upgrades to recycling and what we’re going to do in these third world countries and making these investments. And I think all of that stuff is really good. Those are good things to do. I just don’t know that we can create global circularity in an expedited amount of time to have the impact that we need to have. And so one of the reasons that I’m really focused on transitioning away from a lot of single-use plastic is I do believe globally as a supply chain, if we could transition away from a lot of single-use plastics and do that in the next three to five years, that could have a really big impact really, really quickly. And is it a panacea? Maybe not, but it’s the thing that I think that can happen the fastest and can be the most effective globally.

Wes Carter:
But again, the thing that keeps me up at night is how do we create global circularity waste collection, recycling, advanced recycling all over the world in a lot of impoverished places? It’s going to take first world countries like the United States, like all Australia, like Canada, like countries all over Europe, really making decisions that the oceans know no borders. Healthy rivers and lakes and oceans are a priority for all humans, regardless of what your address is. And so I do think it is going to take a radical amount of collaboration really globally in order to do this. But again, that one concerns me a lot.

Simon Mainwaring:
And often the practical execution that you’re talking about won’t happen without a shift in mindset beforehand. What do you think is the unlock that has to happen? Is it that we’re talking about it in alarming terms and that demotivates people? Is it that we’re not rewarding companies or consumers that are showing up in new ways? From a mindset point of view, what needs to shift so that we can prioritize these new activations?

Wes Carter:
To me, finger pointing just is a wasted effort. We can point fingers and say this company’s doing it wrong, or it’s this organization’s fault, or that the problem is littering in third world countries. I’ve heard that excuse before. I just don’t think… Even if some of those things maybe you could argue are true, I just don’t think any of that is very productive. To me, we really need to be celebrating the wins. We need to be working together and collaborating and saying, “Look at this new system that we’ve created. Look at what Starbucks has done.” Or, “Look at what a major consumer products company is doing from a circularity perspective. This is working, let’s celebrate this. How do we replicate this over and over and over again?”

Wes Carter:
And really to me, it’s about storytelling. I think humans respond to storytelling better than anything. I mean, we are storytellers by nature. And for me, what really moves the needle is to be inspired. And I think the stories of change and transition and inspiration are what can create this momentum and continue this momentum in a really expedited way. And again, the whole purpose of A New Earth Project was to create a platform for celebrating the wins. It’s about all of us cheering each other on and going, “Hey, guys, let’s do this. We can do this. We can collaborate. We can do this together. And let’s not spend so much time pointing fingers at each other and trying to figure out whose fault it will was.” I mean, I really don’t believe any human being or organization or government went out intentionally to pollute the environment. It has been an unintended consequence of progress.

Wes Carter:
Maybe we’ve been naive. Certainly you can make that argument. But again, all of that’s in the past, all we’ve got is right now. All we’ve got is right now. And to me, the solution for right now is radical collaboration. It is about we. It is about understanding that in order for this to work, everyone has to win. When we’re having these negotiations between companies, we all have to have this goal of a healthy, clean planet primary. And again, we have to create solutions that are equitable for businesses. Everybody can’t lose money and go out of business doing this, but we all have to have this common goal. And again, I believe celebrating the wins and promoting those wins, and then working with other companies to figure out how we can create even more sophisticated systems is the way to go.

Simon Mainwaring:
Wes, I couldn’t agree more. Radical collaboration so we can meet these timelines, and meet these challenges with equal force. So thank you for the example you’re setting at Atlantic Packaging. Thank you for your walking the talk yourself. Thank you for the New Earth Project, especially as a surfer who cares deeply about the oceans. And we look forward to seeing how you and the entire industry can help transform our future moving forward. Thanks, Wes.

Wes Carter:
Thank you very much. Well, I will leave you with one last thing. We are launching anewearthproject.com on earth day this year, so a lot of these sustainable fiber-based products will be available on that website for businesses, small, medium, and large businesses alike. We’re also launching a series called A New Earth Project that will be featuring all of these stories of surfers and advocacy around the world. So thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.

Simon Mainwaring:
So definitely check out the New Earth series and the products, because this is how you become part of the solution. Thank you so much, Wes.

Wes Carter:
Thank you. My pleasure.

Simon Mainwaring:
Thanks for joining us for another episode of Lead With We. And you can find out more information about today’s guest, Wes Carter, in the show notes of this episode. And follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Google Podcasts so you never miss an episode. Plus you can now find us on United Airlines in- flight entertainment as well. And if you like this video, hit the like button below and subscribe. Finally, if you want to dive even deeper into the world of purposeful business, check out my new book, Lead With We, that’s now available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and Google Books. Lead With We is produced by Goal 17 Media. And I’ll see you again soon. And until then, let’s all lead with we.